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| Ultimatum X-Men Requiem | |
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| Topic Started: Aug 6 2009, 02:10 PM (969 Views) | |
| jrpbsp | Aug 6 2009, 02:10 PM Post #1 |
Undisputed Ruler of Comicdom
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This issue was more of the same from Ultimatum. It attempted to give a send off to the hoard of dead mutants from the big event but did not really hit any emotional notes. It was basically just an excuse to fight a few of Magneto's people and show a whole lot of dead bodies. I am glad that I can leave this 'verse without regret. |
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| Ahma | Aug 6 2009, 02:36 PM Post #2 |
Secret Agent
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Frankly, the Ultimate Universe never struck any chords with me either; they set off trying to make the classic mutants modern and "cool", but ended up with making them angsty and over the top. And frankly, I don`t see why the X-Men need a modern make-over anyway, since their action is set in the present and their take on current events is pretty much up to date with present mentality.... It`s not like they`re wearing their underwear on the outside and are fighting caped villains with goatees who like to monologue (not that they did that on a regular basis even back in the day). |
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| jrpbsp | Aug 6 2009, 02:54 PM Post #3 |
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Undisputed Ruler of Comicdom
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Since it is an X-title I did collect it faithfully for the past what 9 years? And some of the stories were very good. But it had it problems right from the start and it did need a fresh take. Of course Ultimatum basically told us X-Men readers that they really couldn't care about us and did not want our money at all. Obviously they want to appeal to a new group. So I'm glad I can just walk away. |
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| Gorvar | Aug 6 2009, 03:25 PM Post #4 |
Self claimed fanfic critic.
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The Ultimate unvierse was good in the beginning. I lvoed the first two Ultimates to bits and the Ultimate Spider-man series, but ever since U3 and Ultimatum.... |
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| Ace | Aug 7 2009, 02:07 AM Post #5 |
Samurai
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No need to be melodramatic, that's not the message at all. Ultimatum exists as an admittedly very poorly executed swan song. It's Marvel's admission of guilt, not a "screw you" to the readers. They screwed up, they know it, they've said it. Somewhere along the lines they lost track of what made the Ultimate universe special (a topic I've gone in depth about in the past, and feel no need to do so again). They overcrowded it with too many characters, too many of the same hokey concepts the line was developed to get away from, and too many titles. Marvel knows this, they've said it in countless interviews and so on. They wanted to fix what they had broken, but it was too late. The bad stories, they were already written. They couldn't simply say "The canonical Ultimate universe ended at Ultimate X-Men issue #44" (as an example), and then simply start over from that point. The damage had been done and the books were no longer selling. Ultimate X-Men and Fantastic Four's reputations had been so badly damaged that the books were selling a fraction of what they once did. It was over. As proven with the new "Exiles" series, that is canceled as of issue 6 and sold even lower than the previous title... once the damage to the title is done, it's over. There's no going back. Ultimatum wasn't a snub. No, in actuality I feel it was anything but. You see, if they really truly didn't care about the Ultimate line? Then they would have simply canceled it all outright. No explanation, no send off of any kind. Instead they crafted an entire crossover storyline to tie up the loose ends. They then salvaged the usable concepts, namely Spider-Man and the Ultimates, the only concepts that hadn't been irreversibly tarnished, and moved forward. I certainly won't fault them for that. Could they have also released a new Ultimate X-Men and Ultimate Fantastic Four series? Yes, but to what end? As stated before, the tarnish is there. You can't undo the fact that that godawful Apocalypse storyline was written, or that the entire X-Men team was taking addictive steroid-esque drugs. Or the fact that the Fantastic Four went to an alternate dimension with pseudo-magic/cosmic fairies that spoke as if they were doing cocaine. In closing, I ask you this: How many wonderful books with abysmal sales have been canceled over the years? Countless. How many of those hose books simply ended, often times with little to no explanation or notice? Many. Yet Ultimate X-Men/Fantastic Four, two titles which were long since past their prime, and at the time of cancellation bordered on garbage... they received an entire event as a send off. I think that speaks volumes about how much Marvel appreciated the Ultimate readership. |
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| jrpbsp | Aug 7 2009, 09:22 AM Post #6 |
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Undisputed Ruler of Comicdom
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Now you're confusing the Ultimate Line with the Ultimate X-Men title. Sorry but they are not the same thing. It's obvious they want to try and 'save' or 'salvage' the Ultimate line for what they think are good stories or whatever. That's fine but it does not change the fact that they have given a big old middle finger to the X-Men which was the second title made and has been going steady since late 2000. Now if they had wiped out the FF and left only say Reed or Sue I would agree to a point about them moving on but they did not. And a send off does not mean killing all the characters in a horrible story, many of which weren't even given screen time. I would argue that simply canceling the title and moving the characters to Limbo until a good story comes along as a LOT more respectful then blowing them up. I would also hugely argue that the Ultimates have not been tainted. Ultimates 3 was far worse, in my opinion, then even the crappiest X-Men story arc. It's was appallingly bad. Like all the other series it started off strong Ultimates, had a solid middle Ultimates 2 and then it sucked Ultimates 3 and all the mini-series. Let's do a little comparison shall we? Ultimate Spider-Man - No deaths. This is their most popular title so despite saying that at least one original character from each group will die, this one escapes. Ultimate Fantastic Four - Lost one member Johnny Storm. Sue, Reed and Grimm all survive. Yes they killed off their major villain too but does not really affect the title that much. And already been hints that Johnny could come back with Reed and Sue figuring out how to get to hell and retrieve him. Ultimates - Second hardest hit but they have a new series continuing anyway. Lost Thor, Wasp and Pym. Though since we saw Thor in Valhalla I don't doubt he'll be back. Valkyrie's fate is semi-unknown but she could easily be the new Thor for now since she had the hammer. Still have two of the big three (or three of the big four) with Cap, Iron Man, Hulk, Fury, and Hawkeye active. X-Men - Lost Xavier, Angel, Beast, Cyclops (So four of the originals), Wolverine (the flagship), Kurt, Betsy, Dazzler, Cannonball, Polaris, Emma Frost, Sunspot, Longshot, Madrox, Toad, Juggernaut with Havok and Firestar MIA and of course their major baddie Magneto dying. Only leaves Colossus, Iceman, Storm, Jean and Rogue (maybe Kitty though she is really a Spider-Man character now). Oh and they destroyed the mansion and decided to move on no longer as X-Men which is something none of the other teams did. Now I know Wolverine is supposed to return in like the third arc of Ultimates but even if that happens he'll be an Ultimate not an X-Men anymore. Yes the X-Men had the most characters to lose, but this is not just chaffing out the fluff. They killed off a lot of very core characters that have been in the series since day 1. In fact half of those characters died and all of the after characters except Rogue (maybe Kitty) are gone too. |
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| Ace | Aug 7 2009, 11:51 AM Post #7 |
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Samurai
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On the matter of deaths... Ultimate Spider-man did lose a supporting cast member: Daredevil. He's been in the book five or six times, and in no other Ultimate titles except the two limited series (which were supposed to be a trilogy). It's not quite the same. But with a solo book, outside of the hero himself, supporting characters are the only ones that it has to lose. Additionally Peter Parker may be dead. Requiem suggested that he's not, but all of the solicits seemed to suggest that he is, and a future cover shows Spider-Man holding Peter Parker's corpse. I expect it's all misdirection, but I felt it was worth noting. And Ultimate Fantastic Four Requiem shows Johnny as being alive. All four members survived. Johnny, Iceman, and Kitty will apparently be becoming full-time supporting characters in Ultimate Spider-Man. It seems, for the record, that the characters that were killed and those who lived and the directions that their lives took was designed to tie into the Ultimate X-Men/Fantastic Four specials that came out not too long ago. We received a glimpse of the distant-ish future post-Ultimatum and it lines up with the outcomes of these titles.
Now, Ultimates 3 was a terrible, terrible story. It was an inferior Ultimate version of Avengers Disassembled, and essentially reverted and portrayed the Ultimates as the classic Avengers. Something that is deeply contrary to the Ultimate line's mandate. With that said, the reason I don't hold it to quite the same standard is because while that book was little more than one glorified fight scene with little substance... it didn't egregiously alter many elements that can't be easily reverted. Ultimate X-Men, for example, had Kirkman retconning Sinister to BE Apocalypse. Whereas previous writers had suggested that Apocalypse was merely a figment of Sinister's twisted psyche. A logical, realistic approach to a very silly 90s concept. That can't be undone. That storyline, that arc, that's permanent. Phoenix? Suggested to be nothing more than Jean's powers manifesting through her psyche originally. Then Kirkman introduced the Shi'ar and made her an actual cosmic spacegod. Those are concepts that work in the mainstream continuity because they were established from years ago, when those were acceptable stories. Suspension of disbelief is required, but in a setting with magic and Gods and talking cat-people and whatnot it was alright. The Ultimate universe stood for realism, science, and a grounded perspective. The point being, Jeph Loeb's terrible Ultimates 3 was a bad story, but all he did was kill the Scarlet Witch. Captain America is still a 40s throwback, Iron Man is still a drunken sex-monger, etc. The fundamentals are still in place. It was a tremendously pointless and vapid tale, but it didn't outright destroy the Ultimate universe's very concept as was done with Kirkman's Ultimate X-Men and Carey's Ultimate Fantastic Four.
Character limbo doesn't work for Ultimate X-Men. Mutants and the X-Men are too much of a factor in the Ultimate universe. If you put them in character limbo they're just going to pop up in the other books as ever-present guest appearances and reminders that they no longer have a role or a title in this line. They obviously felt they could no longer do the mutant problem justice. That their roles had become little more than a lesser copy of the mainstream titles towards the end. There was a time when the book was relevant, but then the mainstream continuity started becoming more and more like their Ultimate counterparts (a well-known and documented phenomenon) as that realistic take was clearly selling. I don't see any way that the X-Men could go on living and co-exist with the Ultimate universe without their own book. For the rest of the line's history there would be a constant question of "When is Ultimate X-Men coming back?" with the eternal answer of "When the concept sells again". Which is highly unlikely, as stated previously. I suspect we'll see both Wolverine and Cyclops again, though. Wolverine because of his upcoming role in Ultimate Comics: Avengers, and Cyclops because he played a large role in the future presented in those two specials I mentioned earlier. |
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| Ace | Aug 7 2009, 11:57 AM Post #8 |
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Samurai
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In addition to what I just stated above, here is an excerpt from the wiki article in regards to the falling sales of the entire Ultimate line:
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| jrpbsp | Aug 7 2009, 12:29 PM Post #9 |
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Undisputed Ruler of Comicdom
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I am not counting Daredevil as a death because he was meant to be more of a core universe character. Yes he appeared in Spider-Man a bit but so did a lot of characters. He was not present enough to count. None of the major supporting characters died. I did not know Johnny was back already but I knew it was only a matter of time. Obviously that team is a lot more respected then the X-Men. i did read the cross over and yes I know it is possible they are working towards that end, but frankly that story was silly and bad so I don't see a reason to go in that direction if they are trying to redo the universe. I would argue that the way the characters were portrayed in Ultimates 3 was bad enough that it tainted the whole thing. I mean the characters were repugnant and so out of character that it would be hard to really relate to them again afterwards. That is more damaging to a brand, to me at least, then silly story elements. But I do understand the point that it did not majorly change things. But the two examples you suggested, I don't think, killed X-Men. At this point we have had alternate universes, Galactus invasion the surfer and all sorts of over the top elements most of which came into the Ultimates or Fantastic Four. Having Apocalypse be a disembodied god possessing a mutant is a bad idea but not a brand killer neither is alien intervention especially when it has happened several times before. Yes they obviously felt the could not longer handle the mutant problem and the reason is the story they created making Magneto the bad guy. They could have made Doom being the one wrecking the planet or Namor or Loki or whomever. They picked a mutant essentially destroying the potential for a mutant hero team. That was Marvel's choice. They picked their sacrificial lamb on this and it was those of us that were X-Men readers. I don't see how that is either respectful or not telling us to kiss off. So you're arguing that the Fantastic Four which was traditionally very much an team and a family and which tends to not interact much with the outside (hmm like the X-men) can work fine being supporting characters in Spider-Man and yet the X-Men who have a huge number of characters many of which could easily fit in other places, can't? As for the sales, yep I know the whole line was tanking badly. Ultimates was the flagship pretty much since 2 came out and I can understand wanting to keep it. I also understand keeping Spider-Man even though his sales were not much more then the X-Men because he got good reviews and had lots of very devoted fans. But look at the numbers and see how FF did and then see how well they came through Ultimatum. Then look at the X-Men numbers and realize that every single reader lost more then one favorite character. Argue the spin all you want but out of the four titles FF can start up again tomorrow, Spider-Man is continuing, Ultimates has a title with a potential second one and the X-Men are gone. Mostly dead, home destroyed, team disbanded and the rest of the world hating them and screaming for their blood. Then tell me that us loyal X-Men fans were treated well and not essentially told to piss off. |
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| Ace | Aug 7 2009, 01:17 PM Post #10 |
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Samurai
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It seems to me, that they're working towards making the Ultimate universe fit into the future portrayed in those one-shots/specials/whatever they were. I don't necessarily agree with that, as you're right, it was a highly silly idea. I think time travel is something that should have been left out of the Ultimate universe entirely, but alas. Still, it's an interesting observation. The reason I bring it up is that I seem to recall Cyclops no longer being a mutant, and suggesting that there were few to no mutants in the future. I may be mistaken, however. As for Ultimates 3, bad characters are one thing, and they did abound, but characters have off days. People have days where they don't act quite themselves. I'm not suggesting this is acceptable for such a high profile book, of course. What I am saying is that it's one thing to write characters improperly... it's another to write a terrible and unretconable storyline. And yes, I do cite those two stories are two of the jump the shark moments for X-Men. Of which there were many... Mystical space gods (Thanos, Phoenix, Apocalypse), magical reality altering powers and items (cosmic cube, Jean Grey's phoenix abilities), transdimensional societies ruled by the Silver Surfer and gibberish spouting mind-reading fairies (or whatever the hell Mike Carey was writing about in UFF), drug huffing totally out of character X-Men (admittedly post-Kirkman, but regardless), shrinking down and entering a characters body, and countless other stories all contributed to the downfall of those two books. The list truly does go on and on. When Kirkman and Carey came on board they suddenly felt the need to take the very worst elements of the corniest stories from the 90s, and reinterpret them in an even hokier and much more bizarre way. It was really a train wreck. So bad in fact that I physically could no longer read Ultimate Fantastic Four. I caught up via back issues when I heard it was coming to a close, but until then, from like the 3rd issue of Carey's run I just couldn't take it. It was that bad. It was a an absolute horror to read that run in its entirety. In contrast, Gah Lak Tus was much more believable. Extraterrestrials are a realistic concept. It's difficult to believe that in a universe we know almost nothing about that we're the only intelligent life. The Chitari (the Ultimate version of the Skrulls), and Gah Lak Tus were in contrast to the original concepts quite realistic and relatively well done. A hive-minded swarm of robotic space devourers is something that could conceivably happen, a giant humanoid man in purple and pink clothing towering above the Earth that speaks perfect English and has a name that's clearly just the word "Galaxy" combined with the villainy end-name gibberish? Notsomuch. Magic and cosmic energy wielding entities should not be a part of the Ultimate universe. It worked with Thor (until they confirmed that it was indeed real) because there was doubt. "Is it magic? Trickery? Is he a crazy mutant?". As long as that doubt existed, the concept could fit. I digress... admittedly, I did overlook the Fantastic Four in my scenario for why the X-Men needed to disappear permanently, but regardless of that I think it could still stand. The Fantastic Four are nothing. In the Ultimate universe they had barely come into contact with the other teams. They'd accomplished very little that wasn't just a scientic adventure (in terms of world saving and reputation). Ultimately (no pun intended) they amounted to very little, and are completely forgettable in terms of book demand and in-continuity prominence. The book was excellent in its hayday, but when it comes down to it, it was almost entirely unimportant. On the contrary the X-Men are in fact so important that one can't be expected to allow them to roam free. They hold too much weight in the continuity, as mutants permeate nearly every aspect of the Ultimate universe. I don't see it as a "Screw you, X-fans". I see it as the UXM brand being damaged beyond repair, Marvel realizing they can't salvage it, the characters still holding too much weight (If they're not dead, then what would they be doing? In the case of the Fantastic Four Sue is running the baxter building, Ben became a pilot, Johnny is joining the USM cast full-time, and Reed is living with his parents again)... Perhaps they could have depowered the majority of mutants instead, but I have a feeling Marvel considered it and felt it was too similar to what they've already done in the mainstream continuity, which goes against their need to contrast the two universes. To give them individual voices. As long as characters like Scott Summers are alive, they're targets. Which means tales will need to be told about them. Which goes against canceling the book. Scott, Jean, and Xavier can't just go off and live in the mountains because A) they would never give up the fighting as a collective group, and B) that fight will never be over for them regardless of if they attempt to stay out of it. Death is the only solution without ending the entire Ultimate line. |
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