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| Ask Ace ! | |
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| Topic Started: Jun 19 2009, 03:50 AM (740 Views) | |
| Ace | Jun 23 2009, 06:38 PM Post #11 |
Samurai
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To my knowledge they didn't issue a formal apology, but there was a one-shot entitled "Spider-Man: 101 Ways To End The Clone Saga", in which the writers and editorial poke fun at themselves for the entire mess. Might that be what you were thinking of? - The Clone Saga is a fascinating story, notsomuch the storyline itself, but the history behind it. Pull up a seat, and I shall tell you a tale of epic miscalculation and misfortune... First off, you need to know about the fandom. There are a few different sorts of fans when it comes to the Clone Saga. Those who were raised on it and love it, either for a nostalgic or legitimate standpoint. Those that despise it with ever fiber of their being. Those that dislike it but love the character of Ben Reilly. And those who like it when broken down to its core elements. I fall into that final group. What we call the Clone Saga spanned nearly half a decade of Spider-Man stories, but it was rarely a main plotline. Issues that starred Ben Reilly but had absolute nothing to do with clones in any other way are still part of the Clone Saga. It was a subplot for the majority of it all. However for the few storylines that were central to the plot, it wasn't actually terrible. Now, the Clone "saga" started out from dangling plot threads leftover from a couple of storylines involving a character named Miles Warren making a clone of Spider-Man, years ago. The writers got it into their heads to create a followup story, thinking how cloning fits perfectly into the science-based Spider-Man mythos. The original storyline was not supposed to be a saga at all, but rather a singular story-arc spanning a couple of months. The Marvel editorial staff, however, had other ideas. Seeing the popularity of that storyline (it was, to begin with) they mandated that it be extended for the foreseeable future. And so per their order it was extended and inflated with more "twists" and misdirection. This was mainly done to capture the spirit of other such successful events such as The Death of Superman, and the Age of Apocalypse. And early on, it was working. But then things got worse. Midway through the plotline Marvel underwent several editorial and writer replacements. The people responsible for maintaining the book were no longer a part of it (or at least, not as much so) a new editorial staff mandated new story elements. Now one thing you should be aware of is that the hatred for the storyline primarily comes from a handful of factors. A) Marvel kept yanking the readers chain by flipping back and forth between what I mentioned above. B) It went on for yeeeeeeeears. This wasn't an event. It was the true never ending story. And C) in addition to this, Marvel also had several other goals for the storyline: To replace Peter Parker with his younger, hipper clone, Ben Reilly. Feeling that Peter was out of date and out of touch. By extension to end the marriage of Peter Parker and Mary Jane Watson (yes, even in the 90s they were attempting to do that, and there were several attempts before and after). They could do this by revealing Peter to be the clone and making his marriage to MJ null and void, or to take a similar route and have the clone Peter Parker go off and live happily ever after with his wife, and have Ben Reilly take over duties as Spider-Man. Which is the method they went with, for a time. And finally, they had to do that all without a corpse. Meaning they could reveal all of this clone confusion, but Peter Parker wasn't allowed to be killed off. Presumably because it would be too similar to the Superman storyline. These were the reasons fans were frustrated, and many of these same frustrations transitioned to the recent One More Day storyline (but lets not get into that, seriously. :p) By this time there were so many dangling plot threads and convoluted twists that the writers and editors had no idea how to actually end the thing, and so it just kept going. For years it went back and forth between Peter Parker being the clone and Ben being the true Spider-Man, and the reverse of that. More clones were introduced, more villains, more confusion. Going as far as having Spider-Man's powers disappear to "prove" he was the clone. So the sales dwindled, fans were angry, the brand had been damaged in a big way. They threw around various ideas. Time travel, it all being a trick by Mephisto, robots, lies, you name it, they discussed it. And finally they had come up with a solution... It was revealed that Norman Osborn, who had been written off as dead decades prior was the mastermind behind it all. He had contracted Miles Warren to create more and more clones of Peter and his loved ones for the purpose of destroying his life. His mind. His sanity. To take away his life, just as Norman's has been taken away years prior when he was impaled through the chest by his Goblin gilder and went into seclusion. The baby that Mary Jane was pregnant with was killed off (This was another part of the happily ever after scenario for Peter and MJ. Since he wasn't Spider-Man they could have a child and live in the suburbs, etc). Peter powers returned, as it was revealed that were sabotaged by Norman via power dampening drugs or some such. Ben Reilly who had been Spider-Man for the last while died in battle at the hands of Norman, robbing Peter of a brother figure, someone he had become quite close to during these traumatic times. Peter was revealed to be the original all along as Ben evaporated (clones being genetically unstable, thus proving once and for all that he was the original. Norman stood victorious having utterly decimated Spider-Man's life. His child, his "brother", his identity... he had taken it all. Obviously he ultimately lost that fight, but it's rarely his intention to just "kill" Spider-Man. He likes to make him suffer. That was the end of that. Norman was back in the picture in what I feel was the single greatest villainous character return of all time (the ending of the Clone Saga being its strongest element), leading the way for the Green Goblin stories of present day. The remnants of the Clone Saga being swept under the rug and ignored. And "clones" becoming a running punch line in Spider-Man's quips. "You think you have a lot to deal with? I have nightmares about symbiotes and clones!" So yes, the storyline had A LOT of problems. Soooooooo many problems. But for a lot of us it gave us the return of Norman, and Ben Reilly who a lot of us loved, even though we didn't want him to replace the true Spidey. For those who absolute despise it, however, their opinion isn't without merit. It was a dark period for Spider-Man comics, and it came at a time when the industry was on the verge of collapse. In no small part due to this story (it was event fatigue to the umpteenth degree). There you have it, the tale of the clone saga. Or at least, the cliff notes version. |
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| Gabriel Zero | Jun 23 2009, 06:59 PM Post #12 |
Administrator
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Thanks for bringing back all of those memories.  Very detailed and very impressive recap. Thank you very much for all of that information, it will be extremely helpful for reference later on. You said before that there was too many Wolverine / X-Men titles right? Which ones would you cancel? Which ones would you allow to finish? Would you end some of them abruptly? Or would you allow them to play out ? Which ones would you allow to continue? I'm really interested in your answer, since you and I have the same taste in titles. |
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| Ace | Jun 23 2009, 07:25 PM Post #13 |
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Samurai
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Well, I'll start with the three Wolverine books (forget that Wolverine is Dark Wolverine, for the moment). I'd like to see the core Wolverine book, Wolverine: Weapon X, and Wolverine Origins folded in one thrice-monthly ongoing "Wolverine" series by Jason Aaron, Daniel Way, and a couple of other writers. Basically, to pull an Amazing Spider-Man. Even if you don't care for the current direction of Amazing, the schedule has worked wonders. There was always one popular Spidey title (generally Amazing) and 2 - 3 lesser books that usually struggled in the sales department. Most of the ongoings would last 25 issues and then bite the dust. By folding them all into one book, there is no lesser title. Just one singularly important one, with the sales of the 3 books behind it. The same should and could be applied to Wolverine, in my opinion (Obviously, given that this is "Ask Ace". :p) Next, lets write off Deadpool and Captain Britain and MI13 as X-titles. They may have started out that way, but they're not that anymore. That said, Captain Britain is getting canceled (unfortunately), and Deadpool now has two ongoings and several minis on the go. They should simple fold the two Deadpool ongoings into one book and release it twice a month. I love X-Force, but I admit it's a finite concept. After a certain amount of issues it's going to lose its luster, lets say, hypothetically if the same creative team stay on, and the quality stays high... 50. At this point, as I've mentioned before, I'd want to see the book ended and instead made into an occasional event tie-in companion piece. Instead of an ongoing story every month, we'd get a new X-Force mission in a new limited series every time it became necessary. Before that I'd like to see Cable folded in to X-Force. The Cable ongoing is also finite. It won't last, X-solos (outside of Wolverine) never do. Eventually his mission with Hope will be over, and I think we'd find the character right at home in the militant X-Force title. Next up, Astonishing X-Men. I loved Whedon's run, and in particular Hisako/Armor is one of my favorite characters. But these days the book just feels so... unimportant? It's not that it isn't good, per say, it's that Uncanny is the lead title and Legacy is telling the groundbreaking, touching, and continuity engorged stories I love. Astonishing feels like the lost middle child, and I think if it ended I could live with that. Exiles I'll give the benefit of the doubt, because once upon a time the original series was one of the single best books Marvel produced (back when all Marvel really had going for it was Daredevil, Amazing Spider-Man, and New X-Men, as mentioned earlier in another topic). Eventually it lost its way with creative team changes, most notably when Claremont took over. At that point it was almost unreadable. That said, the current writer is talented. So who knows, maybe he'll be able to salvage that brand. If not, it can go right out the window. And finally, X-Men Forever. Again, I'll give it the benefit of the doubt because it might find its voice and its place, but my expectations are low, as this is Claremont, and for the better part of a decade his work has been atrocious. If this follows suit, then it too can go. Edited by Ace, Jun 23 2009, 07:28 PM.
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| Gorvar | Jun 24 2009, 04:09 AM Post #14 |
Self claimed fanfic critic.
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Question: if fruit, and by extension Banana's, are living things, aren't we actually peeling their skins off before we eat them? |
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| Ace | Jun 24 2009, 10:27 AM Post #15 |
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Like most plants, don't they die upon being taken from the tree/vine/etc? So it's alright, we're just eating their corpses!  :p |
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| Gabriel Zero | Jun 24 2009, 08:18 PM Post #16 |
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I know no one really cares anymore. But Millar and Bendis introduced and elaborated on a connection between Sabretooth and Logan. But more then that, he had this family they talked constantly about. I know Ultimate Origins alluded that it was all a bunch of bullshit and that Logan was never a mutant. But I would of liked Millar or Bendis to fix that and make Logan more of a sympathetic character in this universe. Again though. I know most everyone forgot about this or just don't care anymore. Cause like you said, the stories are already screwed over. But anyway... I agree you ideas to consolidate and combine various ongoings and X-books. =) Do you think Daken should never become a good guy? I mean, do you think he can't become a good guy, without losing his originality? |
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| Ace | Jun 24 2009, 09:24 PM Post #17 |
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Samurai
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Yes and no. I think that Daken will never be a good guy in the traditional sense, but I do think that he is capable of finding some level of redemption. However, do I think that would hurt his appeal? Yes, yes I do. Ultimately being "evil" is the single defining quality of the character in relation to Logan. Without that, he's simply Wolverine Lite without all the baggage. And that's an unnecessary character because we already have a far superior version of that in X-23; a character whom has a troubled past and personality that I took an instant liking to. Whereas I still struggle with Daken to this day. The biggest problem(s) with Daken are twofold. He's the quintessential "evil copy" archtype, which rarely produces likable villains (the only one I can think of that I actually care for is Venom). And on top of that he's the ultra-cliched concept (particularly at the moment) of the "long lost son who hates his father and tows the line of evil with occasional moments of heroism". From his very inception Daken has two highly unlikeable and overdone concepts inherently built in to his character working against him. So, should he redeem himself? I don't think so. Could he? Any character can technically become good at any time. There are serial killers who will one day realize the error of their ways in prison and legitimately turn over a new leaf. That will never wash away their prior actions, but that won't stop them from attempting to do good. It would merely mean we'd have Daken in a role he wasn't suited for. Much like any time Sabretooth joins an X-team. Technically he may be doing good, heck, maybe even one of those times he actually meant to. To the writer and character he could be completely reformed. But in such an instance the reader is left scratching their head thinking how absurd it all is. I do see redemption in Daken's future, but I think it will be as a last act of heroism. Perhaps jumping between Romulus and his father before dying. Something to that effect. I don't see him waking up one day and joining the New Avengers, but I could envision a future where he dies a hero. |
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