| A few suggestions | |
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| Topic Started: Mar 17 2009, 03:37 PM (1,298 Views) | |
| DiG | Mar 18 2009, 05:13 PM Post #11 |
Secret Agent
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I hear you. And I will probably be forced to remove post WWII dates from the chronology in my next revision. Most of that text was originally written over ten years ago. The biggest challenge for me is that I still internally view the Marvel Universe starting in 1961. I know it doesn't anymore, but I visualize Spider-Man getting his start in the early 1960s. I read those issues (in reprint), and they took place for me in the 1960s. In fact, most of the universe aged until about 1968 or 1969. And the Marvel sliding timescale is problematic regardless. Presidential terms are especially a challenge. What I don't understand from Marvel's standpoint is why they use actual years at all anymore. |
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| Ace | Mar 18 2009, 05:28 PM Post #12 |
Samurai
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Presidents are just one of the many things you can overlook. Replace the name Nixon with the name Bush and the offhand comment really doesn't change all that much (that's not a political statement, by the way, those were just the first names to pop into my head). Recently there was a Hulk issue, some sort of special I believe, where they flashed back to when Hulk came into contact with the Champions. Somewhat tongue-in-cheek and partially to close in on the discrepancies Hercules made an offhand comment that went something like this: "President Clinton? I thought your President's name was Carter". Period references simply move with the timescale. In most circumstances replace one war with a more recent war, one president's name with that of a more recent president, etc. And because our history tends to repeat itself the references almost always work. Not to be overly political but I'm reminded of the early developments behind the Watchmen film. The studio wanted to move it into our time period to make it easier to relate to. Obviously they didn't end up doing so, but if they had it would have worked seamlessly. In Watchmen there's a conflict in the Middle-East, issues with Russia, threat of looming wars, etc. All of those are still as true today as they were in the 80s. When it comes to the timescale, it's a fairly simple process to keep everything in check. |
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| DiG | Mar 18 2009, 06:47 PM Post #13 |
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Secret Agent
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Having lived through the timescale, the condensation doesn't work simply for me. And I would think that those of us who support some level of aging within the Marvel Universe are probably the ones who have problems with the condensation of time. As always, I speak for myself only. But for me and in the original stories, the Fantastic Four went into space when they did to beat the Russians. Much of the old stories dealt with the overwhelming Red threat. The Soviet red threat. For most of their history, the Soviets were the political bad guys. So to condense the Cold War into a late '90s and soon post 9/11 environment doesn't work for me because I lived through all those years. And those individual years, now condensed, mattered to me. I respect that the condensation does work for you and many, many others, but for me, I still mentally place those stories, and probably always will in world before computers, before the Internet and before even microwave popcorn. Mmmm, popcorn... |
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| Ace | Mar 18 2009, 06:59 PM Post #14 |
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Samurai
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I don't have much time, as I have a show starting in a moment, but as I understand soviets, nazis, and other threats of old are still very much present in the Marvel universe. They're simply smaller factions of what they used to be. You'll still see a neo-nazi threat from time to time. So some of those older references apply today. |
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| DiG | Mar 18 2009, 07:28 PM Post #15 |
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Secret Agent
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You see, I can't compare Nazis with Neo-Nazis. I understand the Marvel Universe can try, but for me it falls flat. And the same thing for Soviets and Neo-Soviets. I have friends who used to have nightmares during the '60s and '70s that they would be vaporized in a nuclear holocaust. And frankly, the '80s only served to magnify that threat (hence Watchmen). It's funny, I remember reading a 1990s Larry Hama Wolverine story where Logan and Creed were involved in a Team X op in 1968. 1968?!? I couldn't fathom that at the time. I mean, I understand why it was done, but it still was stunning to see something like that in black and white (and whatever other colors it was in). And how about those groovy suits and coffee house sequences of the original X-Men?!? |
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| Ace | Mar 18 2009, 07:46 PM Post #16 |
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Samurai
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Clothing is just another part of the books that is subject to the timescale. Take Luke Cage's yellow blouse and tiara. At the time that was a groovy look of sorts. Nowadays they reference it as a poor fashion choice on his part, or trying to be retro. Because the style no longer fits with what a person would have worn a decade ago it has instead become an in-joke. There's generally four ways of handling such elements of continuity: You can do the above and approach it as an in-joke. You can play along and do flashbacks and stories that take place in the past in the traditional garb they would have worn at the time, ala Untold Tales of Spider-Man. You can skate around the issue like X-Men: First Class where they say their regular costumes are at the cleaners (and they don't get them back until First Class Finals). Or you can ignore it entirely and show them wearing modern clothing. I can appreciate that on an emotional level one would prefer to view an issue and its subject material in the originally intended manner. That's one thing. But to work against the timescale simply isn't feasible. Take your 1968 Team X reference. How can a story that occurred in 1968 predate the X-Men if they were formed in 1963? Either the timescale moves forward and the stories with it, or many of the stories we know and love that came afterwords can no longer logically exist. Any and all modern stories simply cannot exist if the timescale never moved forward; that means the retcons that accompanied them wouldn't exist. That would in turn mean that stories such as Wolverine: Origins can't be part of the timeline. I can't wrap my mind around a world where the timescale didn't slide, as it makes anything after the mid-70s a storytelling impossibility. Edited by Ace, Mar 18 2009, 07:49 PM.
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| DiG | Mar 18 2009, 08:13 PM Post #17 |
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Secret Agent
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AHA! I think I understand it our differing opinions now. To you (and correct me if I am wrong), the Marvel Universe has been around for let's call it 12 years. So the Fantastic Four began their careers in approximately 1997. For me, the Fantastic Four started their careers in 1961 and that was 12 years ago. In other words, the past 48 years has been condensed into 12 years. Not exactly, of course, but that is how I internalize the Marvel Universe. That's why the 1968 Team X story is a problem for my sensibilities. I am not saying that my version is the correct way to perceive the Marvel Universe (I think Marvel agrees with you), but it is the only way that I can reconcile things that have happened over those 48 years have lived through a good portion of those. |
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| Ace | Mar 18 2009, 08:25 PM Post #18 |
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Samurai
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Ah yes, I see it now. You're partially correct on the following point:
Yes and no. I believe that 12 years is constantly moving forward. 5 years from now 13 years may have passed in the Marvel universe and the Fantastic Four would have began their careers in approximately 2001 to 2002ish. It always moves forward. And I'm to understand you condense it backwards? So if the Fantastic Four got their start in 1961, it's now 1973 in the Marvel universe? How do you overlook the discrepancies, such as cell phones, the internet, etc? The reason I care so deeply about the timescale is because I cannot wrap my brain around any other way. If Spider-Man was born in the late 40s, early 50s, how could he be 26 - 28 now? And if Logan was having adventures in the 70s that took place prior to Peter Parker being born, how can that fit? It's a logical paradox that's akin to the Carol Danvers situation I thought I had stumbled on. It simply couldn't be and my outlook on continuity cannot adjust to accommodate that. |
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| DiG | Mar 18 2009, 08:40 PM Post #19 |
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Secret Agent
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As you said, yes and no. FF got their start in 1961. Today is 2009. So by the miracle of Marvel time, 48 years of continuity has passed in 12 actual years. And in 2021, 60 years of continuity will have passed in 12 or 13 actual years. The back end of time (1961) gets blurry, so no one today would say that the FF started in 1961, only that it was "years ago". And to address your point, no one really uses years when it comes to when Peter Parker was born. He was born 30 years ago, instead of 1948 (or whenever it actually was). |
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| Ace | Mar 18 2009, 08:47 PM Post #20 |
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Samurai
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That's an intriguing perspective. So in your version of continuity an omnipotent cosmic being might even be able to see that some sort of slowed time is at play in this universe? It's an actual cosmic effect that the entire reality is subject to? Very intriguing indeed. How would it account for retcons? The multiple Captain Americas are an example of a retcon that was used to fill in the discrepancy between how he was active during WW2 (and lost in the same period) yet could still be active in 50s, 60s, 70s, and so on. Since that's a plot element that clearly couldn't have been part of the timeline from the beginning since at one point he was missing for a shorter period of time. |
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