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| Wolverine: Origins and Endings | |
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| Topic Started: Mar 10 2009, 04:21 PM (1,009 Views) | |
| PDA | Mar 10 2009, 04:21 PM Post #1 |
Secret Agent
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First, I apologize if this is not the correct place to post these questions/comments, but can anyone help me with understanding this 5-part series from a few years ago? I have had no problem throughout my life with reading and enjoying 19th-century "classics" of literature, but I need the Cliff Notes version of this series to understand what's happening here. I have reread this several times and am still not sure what's going on. I have read "Enemy of the State and Agent of SHEILD," but have not read "House of M-Wolverine." I understand Logan now has all his memories back as a result. Here are my questions, and I thank anyone and everyone who can help me: Pt. 1 (#36) Why is he waiting at the phones on the street to talk to Emma Frost, and who is he seeking? Silver Samarai? Does he attack the Japanese PM's convoy just to get a little fighting in and some info from the Silver Samarai? Pt. 2 (#37) What does SS tell him? Why does he say "I got no use for it" (honor) - wasn't that always what he sought? Thought the chowdown on his own arm was gratuitously gross. The oriental woman in his dream is not Mariko, but this new character, Itsu? In the dream, it appears that at one point both of his hands have been cut off--did this happen--just a horrific dream segment? The ship takes him from Tokyo, Japan to Department K in Canada-right? Pt. 3 (#38) "An' it worked. Both. Times." - I get the Weapon X segments, but what is the business with this Master Muramasa? Is this also a flashback of another time when Logan was tortured and made into a pawn? Did Winter Soldier/Bucky kill the 4 figures carrying an incapacitated Logan away from the scene of his torture? The shot to the forehead of the figure in the Weapon X lab & of the Muramasa henchman in the snow - both by WS/Bucky? - both same dead assistant? Did WS/Bucky kill the guys in both the lab and the Muramasa guys? Does this mean that Logan did not have anything to do with his own escape from Weapon X -- was in a dead-to-the-world faint the whole time? Is that Tony Stark/Iron Man asking Captain America where to find WS/Bucky at the end? Why? Pt. 4 (#39) Who are the group of men incarcerated at Ft. Leavenworth that Dum Dum Dugan is keeping there presumably for their own protection? Plotwise, what was the point of WS/Bucky's ambush of Logan and the ensuing fight (in which Logan nearly gets his butt handled to him, until he goes berserk and then gets shot))? Who is the woman working with WS/Bucky who shoots Logan, and does she matter to the story, really? Pt.5 (#40) OK...WTF...Why the fight in the previous chapter if WS/Bucky (who has also regained all his memories) just wants to apologize to Logan for killing his wife and unborn son (who I know actually lives and becomes Daken)? It's hard to have much emotional investment in the Logan/Itsu relationship as it's barely developed at all -"Wham Bam...Happiest man on Earth." I felt more for Native in Rucka's "Return of the Native" than I do for this characterless female. Then, this "celebration" - Logan pops his claws and accidently cuts a dancer when an explosion goes off, and suddenly he's FAILED, not worthy. This cold fish, Itsu, seems to have expected him to and turns her back on him, as does this Bando Suboro, who reminds him what a failure he is...'again!' As nothing of Itsu's character has engaged the reader (and in my case, actually turned me off when Logan comments that she seemed afraid that he would fail), her death did not affect me at all - ho hum. So, WS/Bucky's orders were to kill Itsu and get Logan to follow him back to Madripoor - Why? Under whose orders? Does Logan then go to Muramasa to be made into a weapon of revenge against the people of Jasmine Falls who have rejected him? Is this the torture he undergoes and is depicted in #38? When WS/Bucky tells Logan "you got picked up eight hours later" - who picked Logan up? What bombshell does Logan tell WS/Bucky that Bucky didn't know? "I realized that I could never become a better man because I never was a man at all." -- This is the saddest thing I have yet read associated with Wolverine, because depite it all, Logan had always believed in striving to become more than an animal - that the striving was what made him a man. This is what Daniel Way has given us? So, at the end of "Origins and Endings," Logan no longer has a use for honor, no longer believes that he is anything more than an animal - a thug, and is alive only for revenge. Have I got that part right? This TCB made me ill for Logan. I realize this is long and full of probably stupid questions, but I would appreciate the insight and interpretations of all you more seasoned readers out there. Again, I'm sorry if I posted this in the wrong place. |
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| DiG | Mar 10 2009, 04:45 PM Post #2 |
Secret Agent
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I will try to answer a few of the questions later tonight (need to pull out my issues), but let me state unequivocally that I am not concerned if anyone posts something in the wrong place by accident. I am trying to move this message board/fourm away from slavish attention to rules that interferes with enjoying Wolverine as a character. In fact, I think Wolverine would appreciate this approach. He never was one for rules. So post away and enjoy yourselves! That said, you did post in the correct place.  DiG... |
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| DiG | Mar 10 2009, 07:27 PM Post #3 |
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Secret Agent
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Let me try these one at a time...
I think Daniel Way was shooting for a spy thriller with this story. Hence the phone call at the street pay phones. Talking about "the grid" and the like. As for who Logan was seeking at this point? My guess is Muramasa? Possibly Winter Soldier/Bucky, but I don't think he knew that Bucky was involved until he spoke to Silver Samurai. But this is all conjecture on my part. [UPDATE: Definitely Muramasa. Silver Samurai knew about Muramasa's black blade from Wolverine #1-3. So Logan tracks Silver Samurai down to gain more information on his whereabouts.] And, yes, I believe he attacks the Japanese PM's convoy to get a hold of Silver Samurai. Perhaps a secret visit to Silver Samurai's home would have been less dramatic. Edited by DiG, Mar 11 2009, 06:59 PM.
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| DiG | Mar 11 2009, 02:12 PM Post #4 |
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Secret Agent
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Other folks can feel free to jump in here. Ace?
I think Silver Samurai tells him that Winter Soldier/Bucky was involved in his escape from Weapon X. As for the "I got no use for it" line, I believe it's a reference to Silver Samurai's honor, not his own. And yes, the woman with red hair is supposed to be Itsu. Drives me nuts since she looks like the girl with Winter Soldier/Bucky a few issues later. Ship goes from Japan to Canada, yes. |
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| DiG | Mar 11 2009, 04:20 PM Post #5 |
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Secret Agent
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Anybody?
Lots of questions... so let me try to summarize as best I can. Master Muramasa took place right after the events of Jasmine Falls where WS/Bucky kills Itsu. He is also the one who kills the Muramasa henchmen. For sake of clarity, let's call this 1949. When Logan is being subjected to the experimentation of Weapon X some years later (let's call it 1960), WS/Bucky again comes to his aid, killing a few of the guards, helping Logan to escape. Logan still does the lion's share of the work, but he did unwittingly have backup. As for the phone call, Captain America answers the phone in the presence of Tony Stark. But it is Logan asking the questions. |
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| DiG | Mar 11 2009, 07:53 PM Post #6 |
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Secret Agent
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I believe the group of men at Leavenworth are officials who were involved with Weapon X in some capacity or another. The point of the fight? My guess is that Bucky believes Logan is going to kill him for killing his wife. And I have no idea who the woman is. My biggest pet peeve is Bucky covering himself in ink. Is that really necessary? Do you know how hard it is to remove ink? Seems a little overblown for me. Especially because the intent is that it shows how professional Bucky is. Well then my kids must be frickin' geniuses. |
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| DiG | Mar 11 2009, 08:11 PM Post #7 |
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Secret Agent
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Again, I think Bucky is afraid that Logan will kill him. And it's a comic book. "Because you demanded it! Wolverine vs. Bucky!" I completely agree about the lack of emotional investment in Itsu. A character is introduced who is dead. And that is all this is. Not a person, just a dead wife. As for the failure and loss of honor, that is a very Japanese thing. I've been watching Ninja Warrior with my kids the past few weeks. It's a game show where 100 challengers try to beat several stages of this Ninja test. And the people who fail the test apologize for dishonoring their families! Even the ones who are courageous and give it their all. Very odd. And very Japanese. In terms of chronology, Logan is at Jasmine Falls, Itsu is killed, Logan goes to Muramasa and undergoes the process to begin the creation of the Muramasa blade, Winter Soldier frees him, Logan is airlifted to Madripoor. Now this is where I think Daniel Way screwed up. In a later issue, he suggests that Logan's first mission after Jasmine Falls was with Natalia and Taras Romanov. BEFORE WORLD WAR II!!!! So I think the original intent was to send Logan back to Madripoor to train under Seraph in the 1930s at the direction of Romulus who hired Winter Soldier from the Soviets. That is until Way realized that Bucky fought in WW II (and not WWI) and became Winter Soldier after that. At least that is what I think happened. |
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| PDA | Mar 14 2009, 01:08 PM Post #8 |
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Secret Agent
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DiG, I appreciate the time and effort you have put into giving me some clarity regarding this opening 5-parter to Way's "Origins" series. (Not that I'm going to delve into the series now, even after Ace - quite a knowledgeable and expansive poster, and a great new addition to these boards, BTW - has noted that he warmed to it in the later issues.) I'm sorry and embarrased that even after rereading and studying the pictures, the light didn't break for me. Without your comments, I simply did not grasp what was going on, who was speaking to and/or about whom, and what several bits of action or dialog meant. I was, in order, confused, frustrated, angry, then sad - confused about nearly every aspect of this story; frustrated by my inability to "get" it; angry at both myself for my stupidity and for caring too much about trying to figure it out and angry at the author for presenting such an obtuse, deliberately murky story that was only a springboard for the current main Wolverine arc; and sad, not only for the unrelentlingly grim ending knowing it just gets grimmer, but for the realization that I will probably never really "get" the nuances and long history of Logan. (On another post, someone else, and now I don't know who, commented to the effect that "James Howlett? I don't know a James Howlett. My Wolverine is called "Logan!" I feel that way, too. I don't know James Howlett. The character I came to enjoy is Logan.) I have been feeling recently that in discovering this character at this time in his long story and at this point in my life, it is as if I have shown up at a party far too late, the fun and wonderment has passed, and there are only a few crumbs left. There is too much I don't understand, too many past storylines to this character that I will probably never know even with your remarkable and detailed chronology to act as guide. Sometimes trying to untangle the threads of his development just from reading the chronology and other Wolverine background sites has given me a headache! The collected TPBs are often a mixed bag, hit or miss, with many of the compilations of "bests" often having the same issues repeated from other compilations. I am still drawn to Wolverine, but am starting to feel very foolish in even trying to get on board or keep up with the overwhelming amount of information and its contradictions. Maybe, I'll just go with feeling like a fool... I certainly didn't mean for you to shoulder the weight of trying to enlighten me about the muddled storyline of a single group of 5-year old comic books by yourself. I noticed your call for others to chime in wasn't answered - can't fault anyone else there! The initial post was a bombardment of stupid questions! These 5 issues were produced so long ago and are just old news for everyone now, but the TPB was only recently given to me. If it weren't for your kind answers, I would probably never grasped anything of it, but a string of incomprehensible fight scenes with flashbacks to the sadistic torture meted out by various programs, and another scene of failure for Wolverine. He is like Sisyphus, continually pushing that rock up the slope only to have it slip and roll back down whenever he is anywhere near reaching the top. DiG, you are fabulous. You have been kind and I feel I have made a nuisance of myself with this initial far-too-long laundry list of everything I did not understand in this one TPB. I read Wolverine for fun and adventure, and also because despite the evil he has done and is capable of doing, there is usually a good reason for his actions, and deep down he is a good man. ("I am Logan. I am not an animal. I'm not.") Reading is no fun when I understand so little of what is going on right in front of me on the page, and what little I do grasp leaves me sad and cold for the protagonist. As you see, I am still a bit in a funk both at myself and at the material. I've wasted enough time, so I'll try to shut up and stop my stupid whining now.... Cheers, all. |
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| Ace | Mar 14 2009, 01:17 PM Post #9 |
Samurai
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To start out, I'd like to say thank you for the kind words, PDA. I came into this topic with no specific thoughts in mind, and ended up being complimented and moved. Secondly I must apologize that I wasn't able to answer the call. I'd had glanced at this topic briefly before, but my memory of the subject material has long since faded. It's not a particularly well-crafted story, and most of it didn't stick with me afterwords. I vaguely recall the Winter Soldier, the Silver Samurai, and the concept of some flashbacks to Japan. Thirdly I'd like you to keep a few things in mind. The series does improve later on, and the stories become less convoluted than the one you've just read. Though that may depend on reader. However you already knew that from my previous posts. So what I'd really like you to remember is that Wolverine: Origins exists to tie up Logan's past. These are Daniel Way's words. The series exists so that Logan, as a character, can redeem himself and leave his past in the past and focus on the future. So while you may be disillusioned at the moment, in the not so distant future you'll be given a clean slate should be more to your liking. In the meantime there are other books such as Wolverine: First Class, and the upcoming Uncanny X-Men: First Class which should scratch your itch for more lighthearted (yet still well-written) Wolverine adventures. |
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| DiG | Mar 14 2009, 02:21 PM Post #10 |
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Secret Agent
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PDA, These are not dumb questions. If they were, I would have ignored them. I had to reread and reparse the issues to figure out exactly what was going on. And I'm still not sure I got it right. It seemed apropos to watch Memento with my kids last night -- every time I watch the movie, I pick up on another detail. And I really do enjoy your contribution to the forum and the website. This is a place to celebrate, ask questions and debate Wolverine. And if I didn't enjoy these discussions and chronological explanations, I never would have started these sites in the first place. |
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